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Post by Centurion on Jul 25, 2016 16:50:37 GMT -5
The general sense I'm getting here is a new board. I'd be thrilled if you all wanted to participate at Infinite Comics though.
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Post by adrini on Jul 25, 2016 20:21:48 GMT -5
Page layouts, design and ultimately recruiting should be secondary concerns to actually getting content up. Content is what drives sites and engagement as well. My thoughts are - - offer up a place to do done in ones for people to try stuff out in a safe place - Don't force people into blocs of concepts and force people to go through hoops to get characters. One of the greatest frustrations is trying to come up with fun titles and then being shot down immediately because person A wants a character, who is not claimed, but had to have protracted and lengthy discussions to get said character from person B. Just claim. If you miss a character then you miss a character. It's not different to missing a title claim and frankly, if you can't be creative why bother writing? - Allow different approaches. I.e. Down and Ultimates vein. One of my feelings early on was that if you wanted to try something a little out the ordinary it would die early because people would rip it up based on the fact it was different not if it was good - Build a character not a universe. So Thor hasn't been established yet - you don't need him to establish Avengers or indeed anything else. Don't be a slave to continuity of comics be a slave to the continuity of the site. I saw people getting hung up because of characters they 'needed'. No such thing. I guess what it boils down to is, have fun, be flexible, don't judge someone else's storyline based on the fact it doesn't fit in to your preconceived notions of that character/concept. This is supposed to be fun and what you consider to be 'your character' isn't necessarily the same version as someone else. If I much preferred, say, Nu52 Martian Manhunter over the classic version that's on me and no other version is superior or what not. I think design is all well and good ONCE you have content and engagement up. Ditch the chat box and force people to talk to each other in threads. Trust me, this will drive engagement up between members. I have several points of disagreement. -people are allowed to be invested in characters. If a classic team honestly means a great deal to some one that's okay. In fact it's common, and no less worthy of respect. -People - admins, writers and readers - have preferences. Other writers and titles will have to deal with that. Calling it a "hang-up" is insulting to potential readers and writers that we hope to get. Some people really care about more traditional takes and characters, they will be involved in this. And no. We need layout, we need rules, we need structure. You build the skeleton before you add the flesh. Throwing content at it and saying "meh, we'll get to the rest later" will just lead us here again. I love writing, I love working with other writers - I don't like the stress of keeping something going because we're half making it up as we go. There's drama, there's ego, there's hidden agendas. I could really do with avoid as much of that as could be. The best middle way I can see, considering all the concerns, is to offer writers the chance to keep titles that are complete and founded and largely self-enclosed. If only to provide a frame work for less secure new writers to work with if desired. I have found that some new writers feel better with something like that to work with. But we don't want anything that will effect others who are more eager to take an independent step.
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Post by Drake on Jul 25, 2016 20:51:53 GMT -5
adrini I think you missed his point. He's saying writers should be allowed to write what they want, regardless of how traditional it is. Yeah, if someone wants to tell a classic Cap story, that's great. However, if they want to skip WW2 and have it be a modern day tale about Danielle Moonstar taking on the role, that should be allowed, too. Nobody should have any say about how to approach their own titles and characters. The other point you might have missed is that if a writer has not claimed a character, regardless of its connection to another title, anyone should have the opportunity to claim that character. For example, if I was writing Spider-Man but didn't claim Venom, and someone else wanted to use him, they wouldn't have to ask. It's honestly a more liberating way of handling claims and could very well motivate people to join the site. It also forces authors to be more creative in how they handle the future of their title, because they can't always rely on claims to be there. HOWEVER, I think we'd need to make sure someone couldn't just pick up all the unclaimed A- and B-listers. There does need to be a limit there. No one should just be able to outright claim a Big 7 Justice League title. He also didn't say rules should be ignored. Rules are the most important aspect of all this, although I do think fearlessdefender is correct that progress needs to be made, creatively or otherwise, to insure the momentum doesn't die down in the next week or two. Appearance, while important, really doesn't come into play until you begin recruiting, which should be a secondary priority because 1) we really have everyone we need at the moment, and 2) people might be hesitant to join a site that looks slow-moving or outright dying. Ultimately, yeah, I think people should be able to carry over whatever they want. If a new writer wants to work with Ultimate Aquaman's continuity, great. If not, more power to 'em. Obviously some of that continuity may have to be adjusted, but it's nothing a few simple edits won't fix.
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Post by Drake on Jul 25, 2016 20:55:19 GMT -5
Of course, I'm also gonna plug the title draft idea here. Even if we take a couple weeks to get things going, if we build up to that, new recruits may not be so nervous about the site's future if they can jump in on that. It acts as an event of sorts to look forward to.
But hey, that's just me. I know that idea's already been met with skepticism.
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Post by adrini on Jul 25, 2016 21:22:44 GMT -5
I wasn't aware we'd stopped anyone from writing stories. I do know some more original stories weren't as liked, but readers don't like everything they read. Comes with the deal.
Also I've had characters claimed away from me for not claiming them fast enough, and had to adjust. Part of the gig. We've had claim limits before, something like that could be helpful.
We've been slow for months. Posting a date of reaction, so people can see that, yes, there is work being done can get us the time we need to do our due diligence here and have a real place to work from. It's been difficult as of late. I really can't state strongly enough how invested I am in *doing this right*. I don't want to be here again.
And I'm not big on the draft, sorry. Didn't seem to work all that well.
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Post by Drake on Jul 25, 2016 21:34:59 GMT -5
And I'm not big on the draft, sorry. Didn't seem to work all that well. Out of curiosity, in what way?
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Post by ericthepilot on Jul 25, 2016 23:40:31 GMT -5
Some thoughts, and some thoughts on other people's thoughts (in no particular order as it's midnight, and I'm just getting home after job number two):
One thing to consider, in terms of keeping characters free to use up, is that 20 claims per title might be a little too generous. Especially given how liberal we tend to be with wallpaper claims, you could probably get away with 10 characters to start with for a solo series and 15 for a team series - this way it forces everyone to be particularly judicious with who they claim and there's not a lot of "saving for three arcs down the road" type thing (or if there is, they're shorting themselves in the short term). People can always add on claims by reviewing titles and completing issues, so starting off with a more limited number might help to keep more characters open.
That could also help to keep the number of "big names" being claimed in one series as well. I think it's always going to be a judgment call (and that's REALLY why we have moderators in the first place) but one kind of yardstick we can use is if a character has been able to maintain their own on-going series in recent times, they probably shouldn't be support in another series. There's always exceptions to this - Venom has had dozens of mini-series and even a couple ongoing series, but never really left the Spiderverse, so having him be a support or villain in a Spider-Man series isn't problematic. But you'd have to work REALLY REALLY hard I think to justify the Fantastic Four being support in a Spider-Man series or vice versa.
To that end, another thing we can do is when people are claiming a series, is have them write up a little bit about what they intend to do. Not so much for vetting purposes or to reject something out of the box from the get-go, but to at least make sure that people have at least a vision to get the series to official continuity. Wouldn't have to give away plot points or anything, but just something to show they've given due thought - if someone can't do that, odds are the series is a non-starter anyway, and better to know that from jump street than have characters tied up on something that's not going to launch.
I don't have a problem with having a kind of "Elseworlds" board for people to play around with characters or concepts, and think it could be a lot of fun for some people (and could easily have lesser restrictions than a prime universe series might have - I wouldn't imagine there'd even need to be a claims list since each one would more or less be self-contained). But, I will admit, that I have not seen it work particularly well on fan fiction boards I've been associated with in the past. Most people seem to feel it's somehow "lesser" even if the series are treated with the same respect as the prime continuity. Doesn't mean we shouldn't give it a go, just as a practical matter, I've never really seen it work out. Love to be wrong about that though.
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Post by thetrueelec on Jul 26, 2016 0:28:41 GMT -5
I think lowering the claim count is definitely something to consider, and I definitely agree with limiting the amount of 'big name' characters a title should be able to have as support, I cant imagine having almost all the big names already taken isn't part of the reason it's difficult to get people to stick around here.
Also on your idea of having people write a synopsis for a series, Drake over on Infinite comics suggested having an interview with each creator when they claim a title both to get people excited for it and to get the author to possibly think more about their title and I like that idea.
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Post by Drake on Jul 26, 2016 7:31:48 GMT -5
Ditto.
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Post by ericthepilot on Jul 26, 2016 10:04:42 GMT -5
First, just to address a point from earlier - I personally wouldn't necessarily rule out Infinite Comics as being the future board we're all talking about. Depends on how it evolves compared to what we're talking about in this thread. If the two are in lock-step, or close enough that everyone can be happy, it seems we'd be foolish to split resources like that and have two competing boards. If Infinite and whatever is discussed here get to a point of irreconcilable divergence, we'll burn that bridge when we come to it.
Perhaps, since the big thing we're looking at right now is working on how the rules of the future board (in whatever shape it takes) will operate, it might be prudent to post in the thread the rules the current boards are operating under, just so everyone has it handy while we discuss things:
General
-Don't troll.
-Be kind to everyone.
-Respect the admins. We have the power.
-Don't take anything personally, nor should you deal out personal comments.
Titles
1. Only one title can be claimed at any time. Additional titles can be claimed on a case-by-case basis, the criteria being how active you are on the site. Obviously there is some bias in this, but you must prove yourself on one title before being allowed to take two.
2. All claims must be public in the Claims thread.
3. Assume any genre, series, character, etc. is available. Non-Marvel/Disney characters will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
4. You may create entirely new concept and/or teams, but the series must have a 1:4 original to Marvel character ratio.
5. After six issues, an author MAY drop a COMPLETED story in favor of another.
6. An issue must be put up each month after you have claimed a title except for the month you claimed the title. You can still put one up but it isn't a requirement.
7. If you can't put up an issue for a specific month you must ask for an extension. It will usually be given, unless you ask for one for your first issue or ask repeatedly. However, we (the admins) are understanding. Just talk to us. We'll help in whatever way we can.
Claims
1. 20 characters per title.
2. Wallpaper is the only section that does not "count" for your limit.
3. Legacy characters can be used in any title as long as the writer who has the rights to the main legacy has given their consent.
4. You have to wait at least one month before reclaiming a title you dropped. If you're not active or have proven yourself unreliable it will take more time.
5. Hero is defined as the main character(s) of the story. Villains are the villains. Support are all the non-main hero characters e.g. Spider-Girl in Spider-Man. Undefined are the characters that could be considered either heroes or villains, or whose roles you'd like to keep secret. Wallpaper are the non-hero supporting characters tied to a franchise or previous important claim e.g. Aunt May in Spider-Man.
6. After two issues have been posted, you may make two additional claims every month a chapter is posted. Therefore you must have your issue for a month up before making a claim.
7. Co-writing is obviously allowed. Eventually if a writer proves to be too inactive but continues to want to claim a title, a co-writer will be required.
8. Avengers can not be claimed. It will be dealt with overtime by the admins and senior writers.
9. Important original characters can be used, but they must be claimed. Your maximum ratio of OCs to canon characters is 1:4. Minor OCs (i.e. wallpaper) needn't be claimed. However, it is encouraged that you use an established Marvel character, even if you need to reinvent them, for any role your story requires.
Guest Writing
1. You are allowed to guest write any number of issues of another person’s title as long as you have that writer’s permission.
2. Guest writing someone else's story doesn't release you from the obligation of your own title. An example would be if Drake wrote Fantastic Four in June/July, he must still write his issue of Spider-Man for those months. To get around this, we would suggest when you guest write to have the other writer jump onto your story.
3. If you are counting on someone to write your story and they don't come through, it's up to you to meet the deadline. Your title is still on your head.
4. You must have posted 5 issues in your title before a guest writer can be allowed on.
Reviews
1. If you have claimed a title then you are required to review at least one chapter in a story of your choice every month. Additionally, for every title you have claimed, you must review an addition title of your choice. This is to further build a community on this site.
2. If you review at least 2/3 of the titles by the end of the month, then you will be given an additional claim the next month. If you review everything then you get an additional two claims the next month.
Crossovers
1. Overt crossovers are not allowed until both titles are in continuity (5 issues).
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Post by Centurion on Jul 26, 2016 10:22:12 GMT -5
And for comparison here's the rules as they currently stand over at Infinite Comics:
General:
1.) Be respectful to everyone. Disagreements happen, but it's possible to have even a very heated debate without being disrespectful to one another. Trolling, bashing, personal attacks, etc. will not be tolerated.
2.) Blunt criticism is allowed as long as it's clearly intended to be constructive. Otherwise please reference rule #1.
3.) Please take the time to read and review. This is meant to be a collaborative effort, so feedback is very important.
4.) Real life will always take precedence over writing for this board. If a writer is facing delays due to real life circumstances please do not hesitate to convey this to the me or the (eventual) other members of the staff.
Claims:
1.) For the time being each author will only be allowed one title. This restriction will almost certainly be lifted in the future, but not until the board has had ample time to advertise and attract new members. Co-writing and guest writing will be considered exemptions to this rule on a case by case basis.
2.) All claims must be posted in the Claims thread.
3.) Character claim types are as follows:
- Heroes are defined as the main protagonists of the story.
- Villains are the antagonists.
- Support are any non-main hero characters.
- Undefined are characters whose roles in the story are unclear, or need to remain secret for storytelling purposes.
- Wallpaper are non-hero or villain supporting characters who are tied to a franchise or supporting claim e.g. Aunt May in Spider-Man or Alfred in Batman.
4.) Initial claims are limited to 20 characters per title. Wallpaper characters do not count against this limit.
5.) One additional claim may be made every month an issue is posted, but the issue must be up before the claim is made.
6.) Legacy characters may be claimed as long as the writer who has the main legacy gives permission.
7.) Only canon characters can headline a title, but there will be no ratio limit on canon to original characters. However, non-wallpaper original characters will still count against the 20 character limit.
8.) There will be no Justice League or Avengers titles allowed at this time. This will also change in the future, but not until active membership increases.
Continuity and Deadlines:
1.) A title will be considered in continuity once six consecutive issues have been posted unless the sixth issue is not the completion of a story arc.
2.) In the event of a writer change, unfinished story arcs may be dropped or continued at the discretion of the new writer regardless of a title's continuity status. All completed story arcs will continue to be considered in continuity.
3.) Overt crossovers will not be allowed until all titles involved reach continuity status.
4.) Titles must be released at a minimum of once every two months. If a monthly pace is feasible then by all means do so, but it is not a requirement.
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Post by Drake on Jul 26, 2016 10:43:34 GMT -5
I think a lot of these rules just flat out work. The only ones I'd change would be:
TITLES
1. Only one title can be claimed at any given time. After reaching 12 issues in the original title, a second title may be claimed. No one can write more than three titles at a time.
5. An author may claim a title for a run as short as 5 issues, but it must be labelled as a mini-series. The planned length of the mini-series must be given, and the author's total claims will be limited depending on it. a 5 issue mini-series will receive 8 initial claims. 8 issues will receive 9. 10 issues will 10. If a mini-series is 12 issues or more, it will be treated like a regular title and be given the full amount.
CONTINUITY (New)
1. A title is in continuity after 5 issues have been published.
CLAIMS
1. 12 characters per ongoing title. The form for claiming a title is as follows:
Title: Subtitle: Type: Mini-series/ongoing Length: If a mini-series, provide the length here. Heroes: Villains: Support: Undefined: Wallpaper:
3. Any unclaimed character related to another franchise may be claimed at any time. Claims are always first come, first serve. However, should there be a title like Spider-Man, and you want to claim Ben Reilly, we do recommend you at least discuss the matter with Spider-Man's author, even if it's after you post the claim.
REVIEWS
2. If you review all of the titles by the end of the month, then you will be given an additional claim the next month.
CROSSOVERS
1. Crossovers are allowed at any time, but we strongly recommend all parties involved reach continuity first before engaging in one.
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New Site
Jul 26, 2016 10:47:09 GMT -5
via mobile
Drake likes this
Post by fearlessdefender on Jul 26, 2016 10:47:09 GMT -5
Adrini - read my post again. I think you missed some points I was trying to make, particularly the classic vs modern characters - I was making the exact point that you made. Everyone is entitled to their investment and their 'own version' of that character. I think you might have projected your concerns onto my thoughts.
Also, we'll agree to disagree over the design vs content model. Sure you need a skeleton but if it's just a good looking skeleton it's still pointless because there's no content. These things aren't mutually exclusive, you can make content while you build a framework
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Post by Drake on Jul 26, 2016 10:47:59 GMT -5
And for comparison here's the rules as they currently stand over at Infinite Comics: General: 1.) Be respectful to everyone. Disagreements happen, but it's possible to have even a very heated debate without being disrespectful to one another. Trolling, bashing, personal attacks, etc. will not be tolerated. 2.) Blunt criticism is allowed as long as it's clearly intended to be constructive. Otherwise please reference rule #1. 3.) Please take the time to read and review. This is meant to be a collaborative effort, so feedback is very important. 4.) Real life will always take precedence over writing for this board. If a writer is facing delays due to real life circumstances please do not hesitate to convey this to the me or the (eventual) other members of the staff. Claims: 1.) For the time being each author will only be allowed one title. This restriction will almost certainly be lifted in the future, but not until the board has had ample time to advertise and attract new members. Co-writing and guest writing will be considered exemptions to this rule on a case by case basis. 2.) All claims must be posted in the Claims thread. 3.) Character claim types are as follows: - Heroes are defined as the main protagonists of the story. - Villains are the antagonists. - Support are any non-main hero characters. - Undefined are characters whose roles in the story are unclear, or need to remain secret for storytelling purposes. - Wallpaper are non-hero or villain supporting characters who are tied to a franchise or supporting claim e.g. Aunt May in Spider-Man or Alfred in Batman. 4.) Initial claims are limited to 20 characters per title. Wallpaper characters do not count against this limit.5.) One additional claim may be made every month an issue is posted, but the issue must be up before the claim is made. 6.) Legacy characters may be claimed as long as the writer who has the main legacy gives permission. 7.) Only canon characters can headline a title, but there will be no ratio limit on canon to original characters. However, non-wallpaper original characters will still count against the 20 character limit. 8.) There will be no Justice League or Avengers titles allowed at this time. This will also change in the future, but not until active membership increases. Continuity and Deadlines: 1.) A title will be considered in continuity once six consecutive issues have been posted unless the sixth issue is not the completion of a story arc. 2.) In the event of a writer change, unfinished story arcs may be dropped or continued at the discretion of the new writer regardless of a title's continuity status. All completed story arcs will continue to be considered in continuity. 3.) Overt crossovers will not be allowed until all titles involved reach continuity status. 4.) Titles must be released at a minimum of once every two months. If a monthly pace is feasible then by all means do so, but it is not a requirement.The bolded rules are the only ones I don't agree with. We've had a bad history with claims, and while I think monitoring them more closely might help, I think it's also necessary to limit initial claims to, at least, 15 non-wallpaper characters. Additionally, I think a monthly release date should be a requirement, assuming a legitimate extension is not needed. It's feasible, especially since a chapter needn't be more than 2000 words or so.
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Post by Centurion on Jul 26, 2016 11:33:37 GMT -5
The deadline is admittedly something of an experiment. I'd like to determine whether or not having the additional time to get a chapter up ultimately reduces the need for writers to request an extension on titles.
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Post by Drake on Jul 26, 2016 12:53:53 GMT -5
I think it certainly will, at least at first, but I also think you'll get far too many slow-moving titles. A chapter every two months kills momentum, and I imagine will result in dropped titles in the long run. IMO writers need the pressure of a quick deadline.
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New Site
Jul 26, 2016 13:13:54 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by fearlessdefender on Jul 26, 2016 13:13:54 GMT -5
Not sure I agree with you there, Drake. Momentum is lost by a lack of interest and engagement, not necessarily a lack of deadlines. This is supposed to be fun after all 😜
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Post by Drake on Jul 26, 2016 15:39:47 GMT -5
LOL right. What I was trying to say is people feel like they have a lot of time to get it done, so they just keep putting it off, until after a few chapters they need an extension request. And then it builds further and eventually the title gets dropped.
Then there's the story's momentum, which will most assuredly die after a two month wait. This might just be me, but it gets progressively harder to care about something when you just have to keep waiting for the next part in it (and that goes for reading and writing). See: Secret Wars.
Of course, my bias is here is also at least partly because this is a new way of doing things, and it just feels wrong to me because it's different, haha.
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Post by Sonny Daye on Jul 26, 2016 15:49:08 GMT -5
So in order to gain a claim, you have to review all the titles? That is both genius and wickedly cruel. I also think that one issue a month should be a requirement. (In my experience there were times [like my Thunderbolts days] when I was getting one issue up per week.)
The biggest thing we should figure out is how to keep activity booming. Real life will always step in, but when it doesn't... There were days when I had nothing going on and I still didn't write, because I didn't see the point of it (of course, these days I have plenty of reason to write, what with the huge hit Uprising is). ASM and UDC are usually packed with activity during the summer, but for some reason, this year, they aren't...
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Post by ericthepilot on Jul 26, 2016 20:28:36 GMT -5
I think the key to activity is to make sure we've got vibrant chat threads going on beyond just the comments. Though they could get contentious and overwhelmed with negativity at times, during the season the TV show threads were always good for keeping activity and community up, and the same went for the threads about the comic books themselves. I know over on UDC we had a really nice thread devoted to pro wrestling, and if there's other topics like enough people on the board share and want to talk about, that's definitely good for keeping things active between issues.
But I do think making sure everyone comments is a big part of things as well. It's hard to get amped up for writing something if it seems like the rest of your fellow board members couldn't give less of a shit about what it is that you're putting your effort into. People can't write for feedback, as it's just not likely to happen nor is it specifically owed, but I think for any board to be successful, people have to make the effort to read the rest of the stuff in the universe and comment on it. Doesn't have to always be the graded and in-depth reviews that Drake tends to do (though those are awesome), it can be a simple "here's what I liked" with a couple thoughts on things that worked.
New issues are always going to draw people into the place, but we need to create a community atmosphere so that hopefully people want to spend time hanging out there.
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Post by Drake on Jul 26, 2016 21:29:58 GMT -5
Agreed 10000%.
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