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New Site
Jul 21, 2016 17:02:25 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Drake on Jul 21, 2016 17:02:25 GMT -5
Discuss
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Post by Sonny Daye on Jul 22, 2016 13:46:28 GMT -5
I like Infinite Comics.
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Post by ericthepilot on Jul 23, 2016 22:31:18 GMT -5
The other site, I suppose is still an option, but for now, here's how things have shaken out to this point, anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
What's more or less been agreed upon:
1) New site is needed that would combine the All Star Marvel and Ultimate DC "brands" in one place.
2) That new site should be owned, more or less by the board membership, rather than an individual member. The easiest way to achieve this and the approach endorsed by pretty much everyone was that the moderation team (to be named later) would share the password of the main account and maintain separate moderator accounts of their own to do most of the board management.
3) We would have an odd number of moderators, to avoid decision deadlock.
What is still in flux (some things obviously more important than others, it's not really a list of priorities):
1) A determination who is staying and planning on participating in an active role on the board of the future in whatever form it takes.
2) Where to recruit new members from to replace those we have lost or who have moved on in a creative capacity.
3) The future moderation team members
4) What happens with the older work - are we starting fresh, or is it possible to bring over existing work and augment it with new series by other writers. Clearly the older universes could be brought over without necessarily being a part of the new canon, but there is room for discussion if this is intended to be a full on New52 reboot, or a Rebirthesque clear out some things while keeping others notion.
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cross
New Member
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Post by cross on Jul 24, 2016 7:26:16 GMT -5
Here is my stance on all of these: I am staying with this group as a Writer and Reviewer.
I'm a horrible recruiter and have tried on other sites I frequent. No luck on that front.
If I'm part of the Mod Squad that's great. If not, that's fine too.
I REALLY love most of our current UDC universe. Yes, some things could be trimmed up but for the most part I like all of it. I know little to nothing about the ASM universe. Everyone knows that I'm a sucker for big universe altering event comics.
That's where I stand.
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Post by Drake on Jul 24, 2016 10:40:31 GMT -5
I think Cross brings up an incredibly important point to make in that he knows the ins and outs of UDC but nothing about ASM. That, to me, is where the problem lies with bringing over stuff to a new site. I'm sure most of the people there would like to understand all of the continuity, but are trapped because most of their experience is with one of the two sites. In fact, I think that's why we're making just one site, because it streamlines the process for everyone.
Also, continuity just gets confusing as hell when you take some but not all of what's come before. See: everything DC since the New 52 (yes, including Rebirth).
I think the new site should be a fresh start. You'd be surprised how much old stories can weigh down writers and prevent new ones from coming on board. That's my two cents. Feel free to disagree.
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Post by Drake on Jul 24, 2016 10:48:56 GMT -5
One last thing. For those of you who feel like your work would go to naught if a reboot occurs, I just frankly disagree with that entire notion. Your work exists, and that's what matters. Every time DC reboots, some old continuity never gets brought back again. That doesn't mean what was written prior does not matter. Literature always supersedes continuity. Nothing lasts forever, but that doesn't mean its time doesn't matter. Just because we've moved on to the third Spider-Man (Holland) doesn't mean the last two incarnations are suddenly unimportant. They may no longer play a part in the continuing story, but they'll always be in the hearts of the readers and creators. Hell, you can always go back and watch the old movies, just like you can always read old stories. I know I've done it before with others' work and my own.
Ultimately, I have very little say in how the new site develops, but I'd hope you guys would listen to and respect my opinion. I've been around (and led) these sites as long as anybody. I've seen highs and so many lows, and I think I've come to understand how these sites progress, regress, and just generally work.
Oh, and if someone wants to continue the FanCons, I will definitely contribute to questions (and be a very happy man).
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Post by adrini on Jul 24, 2016 11:45:40 GMT -5
But it no longer comes into play and the work put into it becomes null. That's new-52 logic and frankly it's trash. If you're trashing an older world own it, it's disingenuous to play verbal somersaults and try to deny it. Call it what it is.
Once we know who's sticking around we'll figure things out. With that group we can all work together to work on the issues going forward. But a major issue has been people showing up, excited, then petter out. Keeping a site going takes work, getting one started needs far more work. There needs to be focus and direction. This is a long game.
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Post by Drake on Jul 24, 2016 12:27:34 GMT -5
But it no longer comes into play and the work put into it becomes null. That's new-52 logic and frankly it's trash. If you're trashing an older world own it, it's disingenuous to play verbal somersaults and try to deny it. Call it what it is. Once we know who's sticking around we'll figure things out. With that group we can all work together to work on the issues going forward. But a major issue has been people showing up, excited, then petter out. Keeping a site going takes work, getting one started needs far more work. There needs to be focus and direction. This is a long game. You know that rule about respecting other people's opinions? The one about not insulting people? The one I readily criticized a guest for because they were treating you like "trash"? Well, you just did that to me by labelling my opinion "trash." Please, let's keep this civil. I was in no way trashing the old continuity. I have numerous stories there. Why would I dislike it? I simply believe the best way to move forward is to start fresh, so no readers or writers hold back from joining the new site because they're afraid of the overgrown and at times confusing continuity that's developed (which would only get worse if we pick-and-choose). As for ending a prior continuity....how does that negate it? Nolan's Batman is over, and yet people still enjoy it. Just because something ends doesn't mean it's pointless. One of the staples of these sites is working toward a grander, greater future with many different titles and stories running and connecting at the same time. To do that, you have to put your work behind the sites as a whole and their future. You have to realize you're just part of the grander scheme of things. All of our writers, but especially our leaders, have to be willing to sacrifice characters and ideas to other stories and writers, to recognize they may have to give up much of their work so that the site can succeed.
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Post by adrini on Jul 24, 2016 13:01:28 GMT -5
I'm sorry, that was too strong a term, but the central point stands.
I am, as you know, for cleaning and removing what no longer has a place. Stories evolve over time and with them parts get picked up and left behind. But they are left behind. They are not "there in spirit, in our hearts to..." to whatever. They are no longer part of the narrative and currently irrelevant. The story has moved on. At the best side stories. But even they make up a minority.
There will be a time to discuss what does and does not get moved on. It will be for the writers present to determine. I'm sure there will be many positions taken. The three main ones are all kept, some kept, all new. All have points, weak and strong, and can be honestly discussed.
There are *not other writers*. We try to look and once a blue moon get someone awesome (like cross) but largely people show up, make grand promises, and flake out. It's happened over and over. If not that we welcome them to either site, explain what the site is and how it works, and then have to talk them down when there's a temper trantum when they can't get exactly what they want.
It's not mindlessly tossing anything (whatever we decide to do, again that will be gone into) that will help this, but we need to find out who we are working with and what they are willing and excited to bring to the table. Ground work. Maybe with a base of pre-established to build off of, maybe not. Again, a discussion to be had. But we need...I'd say 5 real, collaborative, interworking people no matter what we do. And I'm 1,000% more concerned about that then I am any later concern right now.
We could throw out the kitchen sink, but without a core of dependable people to work it would just be academic. We're walking into the same mistakes that got us here already. It's a set up for repeating history. Less poetry, more planning.
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Post by ericthepilot on Jul 24, 2016 13:56:25 GMT -5
I think we do have to be careful in terms of tossing aside the work of the current writers who put all their effort into things at the expense of hypothetical future writers just as much as we have to be wary of closing off too many avenues to new writers because of extant territory claims of existing ones. To use Drake's example, while we are on our third cinematic Spider-Man of the century, and Andrew Garfield is proud of what he did with the character - if you've read the interviews, he's clearly disappointed in not being able to go forward. True it doesn't make his filmed work go away, but there were definitely things he was building toward that he never got to convey on film with the character - effort he put in that won't pay off. It would be no different if we started totally fresh with our writers that are going forward, again, in my opinion. Everything written would still exist, but the work they put in that wouldn't see the light of day would be lost forever.
Now, like Cross, I can really only speak with any kind of authority on UDC to serve as examples, but I can hypothesize a bit on ASM. I have read some of it, even if I hadn't gotten around to commenting.
But taking UDC as an example - of the only people with existing work who have affirmed an intent to remain with whatever board comes into existence phoenix-wise from the ashes of ASM and UDC, I don't think that there would be a tremendous challenge to bring either Adrini's Green Arrow series or Cross' Cat Man onto the new board virtually intact. Sure there might need to be some edits to remove references to things that might no longer exist, but for the most part, both series were pretty self contained to the characters they controlled and didn't do much to invoke other series or outside events.
Overwhelming continuity is a concern, yes, but at the same time, it'd be just as easy to ask them (if we presume they aren't inclined toward a fresh reboot of everything) to write up a "how did we get here" summary issue that covers the basic beats. (I believe Marvel usually calls these Point One issues, DC used to call them Year One, Two, etc.) Eventually we're going to get to a point where there will be long-going series that a new writer either will have to go back through and read, or not, so starting out with a little bit of history for a couple characters I don't see as much of a stumbling block.
Now, that doesn't mean that everything has to come forth. Again, to use an example - Drake and Stardrifer's Aquaman doesn't necessarily have to be a part of the new board's continuity, and someone would be able to start fresh from issue one with Aquaman if they were so inclined. The work could be preserved, archived again to show respect to the authors who came before, and if someone wanted to build from that work, I don't think that would be a problem, again there'd just have to be that summary issue before moving forward. But it wouldn't be mandatory.
Seems like this is a perfect compromise between abandoning all the hard work that people have been building upon while remaining friendly to those who will come in the future.
Now, coming to ASM, Adrini's series is X-Factor (Again, just as an example of someone who is affirmed going forward). This series, I would think, presents a greater challenge in simply porting over the work, but I woudn't say it's impossible to do. There would likely have to be more discussion since it connects more heavily to core concepts of the world (mutants, SHIELD) and there might have to be even greater re-writes, but I wouldn't rule it out, out of hand. We've all proven to be creative, it's simply just a matter of finding that balance between being open for new members while maintaining the efforts of those who are already here.
The too long, shut the fuck up dumbass version: Finding a way to balance the needs of future writers without compromising the efforts of the people that are alrady here is going to be important, and that's what this thread is all about, so we can all see where everyone stands and how best to form a consensus moving forward.
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Post by Drake on Jul 24, 2016 14:13:30 GMT -5
ericthepilot I suppose I can get on board with that. adrini I absolutely agree with you. We have to do things differently this time, otherwise it'll be yet another cycle of a few great months and then a whole lot of BS. One of the things that will have to change is the culture of claiming titles. The two biggest problems I've noticed (that I've been guilty of, too) are-- 1) Someone claiming too many titles, so they get overrun with work and end up dropping everything, leaving a mess of continuity. I think it should be mandatory that you're only allowed to claim one title, and that it must reach 12 issues (forget 5), before you can claim a second. 2) Someone claiming too many popular characters, only to either never use them, or use them in a minute, supporting capacity (a role in which an OC or a less popular character could have easily been used). While I kept planned on getting to Daredevil, I realize now I should have avoided claiming him for Spider-Man. Likewise, a few of the background players of AoS should have gone unclaimed, and I'd even say Dr. Strange should have been avoided in F4, for a variety of reasons.
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Post by Drake on Jul 24, 2016 14:22:42 GMT -5
As for the writer count, I think we'd have: 1. Centurion 2. Adrini 3. tec 4. cross 5. sorcerersupreme
So that's five. That's not counting any other guests that pop up, and elec or eric if they decide to claim titles. Heck, if Dob has time, he'd always be welcome.
EDIT: Absolute best case scenario, if everything goes really well and I'm feeling optimistic about the site's future, I might even claim something.
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Post by ericthepilot on Jul 24, 2016 14:30:29 GMT -5
I'm certainly inclined to do so. I'm starting to write something now, so that (assuming it's available at the time of claiming) I'll have a few issues in the bank for when we go forward.
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Post by adrini on Jul 24, 2016 14:51:16 GMT -5
DOB is certainly interested in writing, but he's working 10 hour days (so no more then one title) and he is a little tired of drama. I can't blame him.
Five is a good number, while more would be better it's a solid start. The next issue should be one of the following (off the top of my head:
-Admins -basis rules -layout designs and concerns -Transfering -recruitment plans (I'd say a page just to lay out EXACTLY what the site is and how it works, so stop any misunderstandings) -Initial advertising strategies. Nothing in stone, but ideas. Get the ball rolling.
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Post by Centurion on Jul 24, 2016 15:25:58 GMT -5
/r/FanFiction is as good a place to start advertising as any. The page has over 6,000 subscribers so posting a link on there guarantees at least some level of visibility.
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cross
New Member
Posts: 21
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Post by cross on Jul 24, 2016 15:59:43 GMT -5
As for the writer count, I think we'd have: 1. Centurion 2. Adrini 3. tec 4. cross 5. sorcerersupreme So that's five. That's not counting any other guests that pop up, and elec or eric if they decide to claim titles. Heck, if Dob has time, he'd always be welcome. EDIT: Absolute best case scenario, if everything goes really well and I'm feeling optimistic about the site's future, I might even claim something. You all saw it! Drake may be able to come back and write! Excuse me and my writers boner.
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Post by Drake on Jul 24, 2016 16:04:22 GMT -5
cross LOL! Dude, you are seriously too nice! I hope I can come back. These sites are great and mean a lot to me. Just gotta get things going first.
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cross
New Member
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Post by cross on Jul 24, 2016 16:08:26 GMT -5
If we start brand new with no continuity being brought over, I'm okay with that. I would like to see the ASM and UDC titles transferred over and placed into a category like a "Collected Editions" or some fancy name (Prestige Collection). I would also like to see less restrictions on writers being able to write a separate continuity title. A lot of people like writing batman. That doesn't mean their story take place in the main continuity. I personally am leaning towards sticking to the DC side of things and writing a Blue Beetle title.
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Post by ericthepilot on Jul 24, 2016 19:43:56 GMT -5
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Post by Centurion on Jul 24, 2016 20:57:18 GMT -5
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Post by thejellyfish on Jul 24, 2016 21:42:27 GMT -5
What if the stories that are finished (Ultimate Aquman, Astonishing X-Men, etc.) are brought over and are canon to the new site, but everything else gets relaunched/rebooted/retooled.
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Post by Centurion on Jul 24, 2016 23:01:22 GMT -5
Continuity doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. Completed or in progress titles can just be branded differently from the new material. Marvel was able to get along just fine for years having their main universe and the Ultimate one.
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Post by thetrueelec on Jul 25, 2016 0:25:49 GMT -5
I think we're getting too caught up on whether stories will be in continuity. That's a problem we can work on down the track when we've got the site started and are ready to start claiming.
In regards to Admin I'll put my hand up as wanting to remain one.
For rules I agree with what Drake said about people often taking too many titles and too many claims of major characters. I think more than too much continuity that's generally the biggest reason why we don't get a lot of new people here because anything they'd want to write has been claimed.
I like Adrini's idea of a page that lays out exactly what the site is about, I know I would have liked one when I found the site.
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Post by fearlessdefender on Jul 25, 2016 2:37:09 GMT -5
Page layouts, design and ultimately recruiting should be secondary concerns to actually getting content up. Content is what drives sites and engagement as well.
My thoughts are - - offer up a place to do done in ones for people to try stuff out in a safe place - Don't force people into blocs of concepts and force people to go through hoops to get characters. One of the greatest frustrations is trying to come up with fun titles and then being shot down immediately because person A wants a character, who is not claimed, but had to have protracted and lengthy discussions to get said character from person B. Just claim. If you miss a character then you miss a character. It's not different to missing a title claim and frankly, if you can't be creative why bother writing? - Allow different approaches. I.e. Down and Ultimates vein. One of my feelings early on was that if you wanted to try something a little out the ordinary it would die early because people would rip it up based on the fact it was different not if it was good - Build a character not a universe. So Thor hasn't been established yet - you don't need him to establish Avengers or indeed anything else. Don't be a slave to continuity of comics be a slave to the continuity of the site. I saw people getting hung up because of characters they 'needed'. No such thing.
I guess what it boils down to is, have fun, be flexible, don't judge someone else's storyline based on the fact it doesn't fit in to your preconceived notions of that character/concept. This is supposed to be fun and what you consider to be 'your character' isn't necessarily the same version as someone else. If I much preferred, say, Nu52 Martian Manhunter over the classic version that's on me and no other version is superior or what not.
I think design is all well and good ONCE you have content and engagement up. Ditch the chat box and force people to talk to each other in threads. Trust me, this will drive engagement up between members.
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Post by thetrueelec on Jul 25, 2016 3:49:06 GMT -5
Page layouts, design and ultimately recruiting should be secondary concerns to actually getting content up. Content is what drives sites and engagement as well. My thoughts are - - offer up a place to do done in ones for people to try stuff out in a safe place - Don't force people into blocs of concepts and force people to go through hoops to get characters. One of the greatest frustrations is trying to come up with fun titles and then being shot down immediately because person A wants a character, who is not claimed, but had to have protracted and lengthy discussions to get said character from person B. Just claim. If you miss a character then you miss a character. It's not different to missing a title claim and frankly, if you can't be creative why bother writing? - Allow different approaches. I.e. Down and Ultimates vein. One of my feelings early on was that if you wanted to try something a little out the ordinary it would die early because people would rip it up based on the fact it was different not if it was good - Build a character not a universe. So Thor hasn't been established yet - you don't need him to establish Avengers or indeed anything else. Don't be a slave to continuity of comics be a slave to the continuity of the site. I saw people getting hung up because of characters they 'needed'. No such thing. I guess what it boils down to is, have fun, be flexible, don't judge someone else's storyline based on the fact it doesn't fit in to your preconceived notions of that character/concept. This is supposed to be fun and what you consider to be 'your character' isn't necessarily the same version as someone else. If I much preferred, say, Nu52 Martian Manhunter over the classic version that's on me and no other version is superior or what not. I think design is all well and good ONCE you have content and engagement up. Ditch the chat box and force people to talk to each other in threads. Trust me, this will drive engagement up between members. I agree with this
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Post by Drake on Jul 25, 2016 14:31:21 GMT -5
Page layouts, design and ultimately recruiting should be secondary concerns to actually getting content up. Content is what drives sites and engagement as well. My thoughts are - - offer up a place to do done in ones for people to try stuff out in a safe place - Don't force people into blocs of concepts and force people to go through hoops to get characters. One of the greatest frustrations is trying to come up with fun titles and then being shot down immediately because person A wants a character, who is not claimed, but had to have protracted and lengthy discussions to get said character from person B. Just claim. If you miss a character then you miss a character. It's not different to missing a title claim and frankly, if you can't be creative why bother writing? - Allow different approaches. I.e. Down and Ultimates vein. One of my feelings early on was that if you wanted to try something a little out the ordinary it would die early because people would rip it up based on the fact it was different not if it was good - Build a character not a universe. So Thor hasn't been established yet - you don't need him to establish Avengers or indeed anything else. Don't be a slave to continuity of comics be a slave to the continuity of the site. I saw people getting hung up because of characters they 'needed'. No such thing. I guess what it boils down to is, have fun, be flexible, don't judge someone else's storyline based on the fact it doesn't fit in to your preconceived notions of that character/concept. This is supposed to be fun and what you consider to be 'your character' isn't necessarily the same version as someone else. If I much preferred, say, Nu52 Martian Manhunter over the classic version that's on me and no other version is superior or what not. I think design is all well and good ONCE you have content and engagement up. Ditch the chat box and force people to talk to each other in threads. Trust me, this will drive engagement up between members. I'm sorry that we ever gave you the feeling that new takes would be viewed negatively. I can't speak for the others, but I'm absolutely open to all-new (hehe) storylines. I feel awful that that was ever viewed as an issue. I agree with most of what you said. My one issue is with the removal of the shoutbox. It sounds great on paper, but we've discussed this before and a number of people - Sonny was one, I believe - said that there were some days they wanted to check in or chime in on a conversation, but either didn't have the time or energy to post in a thread. I know I've been there before. ASM was often more active than UDC (which was shoutbox-less) most of the time, and although that could have been for a variety of different reasons, I do think the shoutbox played a role. It leaves the door open for quick spouts of fast-paced conversation. It's like texting as opposed to calling. Obviously feel free to disagree with me. The eventual admins of the new site will have to make that decision. Just wanted to give my opinion. EDIT: Forgot to address done in ones. I think it's a great idea, but I feel as if they would have to be out of continuity. It wouldn't be fair to let someone just tell a dozen one shots with, let's say, different Avengers, effectively establishing them with a single issue and with no intention of continuing their story. EDIT 2: Site design is the first thing people see when they show up, and can motivate a guest to go one way or another in terms of joining a site. If not our first priority, it certainly needs to be the second.
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Post by Drake on Jul 25, 2016 14:35:14 GMT -5
Oh, and thetrueelec would be a great admin. She's fair, honest, and she's helped me out A LOT over the past couple years, picking up the slack whenever I was busy or outright unavailable. Can't say enough good things about her!
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Post by Sonny Daye on Jul 25, 2016 14:44:52 GMT -5
Like I said, I like Infinite. I'll definitely be a reviewer there, if you guys want. What I think is that it'll need to be as accessible as possible to new writers.
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cross
New Member
Posts: 21
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Post by cross on Jul 25, 2016 15:08:18 GMT -5
Are we still deciding on a new site or is Infinite Comics our new home? I'm a little confused.
(Let me just say that the title "Infinite Comics" sounds amazing to me.)
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cross
New Member
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Post by cross on Jul 25, 2016 16:49:49 GMT -5
Just had an idea. What if we called the new site "Multiversal Comics"? We could designate the All Star Marvel universe as a numbered earth, Ultimate DC could get its own numbered earth, and we could start a fresh Earth 1 line that could stay as the new main continuity. We could even include Infinite Comics and other site created parallel universes.
Other site name possibilities: Omniversial Comics, Megaversal Comics, Crossverse Comics (wink)
Thoughts?
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