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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2014 23:28:57 GMT -5
Along the Same lines-are Fury and SHIELD board claims or do we have to wait for Disciple of Bob to get Agents of SHIELD in continuity before they can be used/mentioned in other books?
-M
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2014 0:17:27 GMT -5
I'm quite curious to learn the answer to that question as well. I've been contemplating an idea that would actually hinge on being able to at least reference SHIELD right away.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2014 0:35:38 GMT -5
Hell is not one singular plane of existence, but rather a multitude of different dimensions that all essentially function as a form of punishment for those who lived wicked lives. Likewise there is no single, permanent ruler of Hell though various lords have vied for and temporarily won the title over the ages.
Demons can only function in the mortal realm for a short period of time. The exact period varies depending on the age and strength of the demon, but it can never exceed more than a few minutes. At that point they must either return to the hell dimension from which they came, or risk fading out of existence altogether. Only by possessing a living host can a demon bypass this restriction.
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Post by thetrueelec on Jun 1, 2014 3:12:13 GMT -5
Shield is a board wide claim, so is Fury.
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Post by Drake on Jun 1, 2014 9:37:16 GMT -5
Elec said it. Anyone can use SHIELD from the get go without contacting the admins as long as they aren't establishing anything big for the agency. However if you are establishing something major, contact the admins before doing so. 99% of the time it'll be fine but we just need to make sure.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jun 1, 2014 10:00:18 GMT -5
I have absolutely no problem with other people using Fury or SHIELD or detailing some of their operations. Fury has his fingers in many pies.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2014 11:48:09 GMT -5
I have absolutely no problem with other people using Fury or SHIELD or detailing some of their operations. Fury has his fingers in many pies. The you probably need to establish a character bible on Fury-appearance-white or black or the Hoff?...bald or graying temples?, patch or no patch?, personality quirks, mannerisms, speech patterns, accent, dialogue, height weight, physique etc. etc. If it's a shared universe everyone needs to be consistent on that and since he is tabla rasa right now you might do one thing, someone else might do old school Fury another movie Fury etc. etc. We also need to establish some foundation for SHIELD-uniforms, insignia, typical gear, hierarchy, operating procedures, military or espionage outfit, how well known b general public etc. etc. so there is consistency in a shared universe. This is the kind of thing worldbuilding needs to be, not claim staking. -M
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jun 1, 2014 12:08:08 GMT -5
I was planning on using the most recent movie version since it's the most well-known.
Black. Bald. Eyepatch. Overall a good man who occasionally has to take some very morally gray actions, which can make it difficult for some heroes to work with SHIELD if they knew the full extent of their operations.
SHIELD is very compartmentalized so different branches can have different hierarchies or operating procedures. Also besides Fury himself almost no one in SHIELD has a full grasp of the entire organization's hierarchy.
They've been active since World War II but their existence has only been made public in 2002 though once again the full extent of their organization remains classified.
Current assets include the Helicarrier as the primary headquarters, a small fleet of quinjets (at least I think that's what the SHIELD planes in the cinematic universe were), a series of SHIELD bases ranging from public knowledge to secret bunkers only Fury knows about, and a large arsenal of very advanced tech and weaponry.
I'll be using "the Bus" as part of Agents of SHIELD.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2014 15:28:49 GMT -5
Quinjets traditionally are Wakandan tech that T'Challa gave the Avengers when he joined, T'Challa is not king, Wakandans don't share their tech in this version, and there is no Avengers, etc. so you will have to develop a different origin for them and a different source for their tech.
Also the traditional identity of Scorpio from Zodiac I (which I have claimed) is Jake Fury, Nick's kid brother which is a whole other can of worms that could be opened. I plan on going in a different direction with Scorpio, but if you had any plans on bringing Jake into your story, he again will likely need to be ultimized quite a bit. Also, are you going with Fury as WWII vet who led he Howling Commandos and discovered the Infinity formula and has been with SHIELD since the beginning, or is he a Johnny Come Lately who somehow became privy to all the inner workings of a secret organization that pre-dates him?
But gain, this is tabla rasa, don't assume people will be drawing from the movies or TV, or assume they will be drawing form the comics, it could be a mix of both, or none of the above, and things will change at the drop of a pin as writers drop titles or new folks make claims.
What this thread needs to d is establish those things that are immutable, things that are true of this Marvel Universe regardless of writer, of who stays and who drops, of claims made or claims dropped. Anything that could change because a writer drops a title before achieving continuity or a new writer starts a different title really needs to be earned by writing and posting the stories and getting the title in continuity before it becomes part of the world building discussion. It screws too many other people over when people try to shape things before they earn it and then drop out of site/sight leaving a mess behind for everyone remaining to deal with.
Shaping the world permanently is something that should be earned by achieving continuity for your title not by posting in a thread before you post word one of a title. For board claims and things that will remain constant, that's one thing, everything else (i.e. anything that could change with a change of writer before they become established) is just something referred to as claim-staking in shared fiction endeavors, and it is usually something prohibited in the first rule of the endeavors that endure, mostly to prevent the endeavor from being torpedoed by unreliable members before it gets its feet underneath it.
-M
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Post by Drake on Jun 1, 2014 16:21:16 GMT -5
I agree with Dob's use of the Sam Jackson Nick Fury. It's what we've used in the past and it provides a neat little window for another plot point we had in the past that got forgotten by all but me. Nick Fury is a codename or a title, not a real name. It's based off the first director of SHIELD, white Nick Fury. Now, while I am an admin, I don't really have my hand in SHIELD in the here and now and I'd be perfectly ok if Dob and Adrini didn't want to go that route.
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Post by Stardrifter on Jun 1, 2014 16:43:57 GMT -5
While I appreciate your stance mrp, and you certainly have a point based on past experiences, at the same time I find it to be pretty self defeating and pessimistic.
Will some of the titles claimed now not make it to being in continuity? Possibly. Maybe even probably. But should we all be in separate bubbles until we're all in continuity? That defeats the purpose of being a community, IMO.
Now I'm not saying we should have Iron Man and Captain America get into a brawl in The Invincible Iron Man #2. But little nods here and there to things being established elsewhere, when it makes sense, helps to tie us all in together and make it feel like a coherent world. Not to mention that working with others to do those types of little things can help build morale and keep people coming back.
The point of this thread when I made it was for us to put things out on the table for others to possibly use, refer to, or even inspire story ideas for the future. Obviously none of it is set in stone until a series reaches in continuity, but I don't think it's wasted either. Maybe things will have to be edited in the future(and when titles start getting in continuity I plan to go back to doing posts on the Continuity board helping to keep things straight) but I for one would rather build a tighter world from the start and have to possible fix some minor things later than do nothing at all.
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Post by Drake on Jun 1, 2014 16:54:02 GMT -5
I'll echo what Star said. We should really try to tie things together from the word 'go' but not be too overt about it. I think that'll actually be a new rule. No overt crossover until you're in continuity. I think I'll cut the time there too. 5 issues sounds about right. 2-4 are about when people leave. It's been my experience that if you get to issue 5, you're likely in it for the long(er) haul.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jun 1, 2014 17:48:24 GMT -5
If you don't want them to be Quinjets because they were Wakaandan tech in the comics that's fine.
With Scorpio, I'm completely fine with him being Jake Fury or someone completely different. Your call there.
I was planning for modern Nick Fury to be the direct descendant of a different Fury who fought alongside Cap in WW2.
If you feel I'm overstepping boundaries by going with any of the above details, I apologize, but there's not much I can do to write an Agents of SHIELD title being able to write anything about SHIELD or Nick Fury until Issue 6. I could, if people prefer, rearrange my claims to include Nick Fury and SHIELD but I assumed they were off the table for claims so they could remain public.
Any other suggestions on Fury or SHIELD let me know.
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Post by Drake on Jun 1, 2014 18:02:42 GMT -5
All of that is fine, Dob. Write what you want to write. Use SHIELD and Fury from the start, haha. It's no big deal.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2014 5:09:01 GMT -5
Here's the thing, we keep going about things the same way every time each time hoping THIS TIME it will work and every time ends up in a reboot. Maybe it's time to take a different approach is all I am saying.
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" -Ben Franklin
If y'all want to keep playing the endless reboot game, it's your prerogative, but I wouldn't expect anything different if you are doing the same thing again.
-M
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Post by adrini on Jun 2, 2014 7:29:16 GMT -5
We need a few core things about nick. Not his favorite food or salsa band but the most basic of things. It can be established later wether it's a title or a passed on family name. Both work. But for bob and myself at least, who have to work with nick and shield by design, he needs enough to BE THERE. Details to be filled in later.
I'll add my two cents and say nods are likely okay but full crossovers should wait. DOB and I use the sites as couple bonding, so I'm fairly sure we won't drop, but reality is there is no way to be sure. Things happen to all of us. Usually (varies from person to person) it takes 4-6 issues to know if you have a grove. Plus there's nothing to say world building can't be planning for later. Already doing that with DOB and jelly. Gives you something to work to.
The only thing I wish is that if a writer is going to drop they wrap up at least key issues, or even just state how key points will be wrapped up. It's rather terrible being left hanging. But there's no way to enforce that.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jun 2, 2014 7:37:30 GMT -5
Here's the thing, we keep going about things the same way every time each time hoping THIS TIME it will work and every time ends up in a reboot. Maybe it's time to take a different approach is all I am saying. "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" -Ben Franklin If y'all want to keep playing the endless reboot game, it's your prerogative, but I wouldn't expect anything different if you are doing the same thing again. -M I don't understand what your issue is here. You ask that Nick Fury and SHIELD be more fleshed out, so I provide some notes on what I have so far for feedback. Then you say I shouldn't be writing these details until I'm in continuity? That's a catch-22. If you have ideas or don't like anything being presented, speak up so we can work on a compromise since it is a board-wide claim. If it's a different problem you have, then please be specific so you or I or Drake or someone else can offer a solution.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2014 13:38:08 GMT -5
Things that are board wide claims should be fleshed out. Because they will stay a part of the universe whether or not you stay on SHIELD, drop it or do whatever. They are board wide and in continuity form the get go, so people need to know this stuff so there titles can be consistent with what is established from the start.
Things that will be developed in individual titles are not part of the fabric of the universe until the title gets into continuity. If I write 3 issues of Secret Defenders and then disappear, what I did doesn't actually exist in the universe-any writer claiming characters from my story is free to do anything with those characters and anything I wrote that is referred to in another story is now an anomaly. If I had planned a huge cross-over with Star that would happen after we both reached continuity, and he started planting seeds for it in his stories and then I upped and disappeared, he is stuck holding the bag with seeds for a story that now cannot happen and he has to then change what he was doing in his title through no fault of his own, but he now can't tell the story he was setting out to and it may affect enthusiasm and momentum, cause issues with his deadlines, etc.
Sometimes things get kiboshed in the planning-Aman had plans for a magical story that he altered because I wasn't happy with his idea for magic and how it affected my story. If I were to then disappear before I got into continuity, he then abandoned that story for nothing. It leaves his stuck again through no fault of his own, now telling a story which was not the story he set out to tell initially, which he could have because nothing I did was in continuity.
If you are going to have a 6 issue before you get into continuity rule, it needs to apply to everything except board claims and be enforced, or it is utterly pointless and you might as well simply say everything is in continuity from day one.
I asked which way the rule was here and was told 6 issues. I didn't care which way I just needed to now how to proceed. People are proceeding as if the 6 issue rule doesn't apply, which is fine, if that is the way people want it.
However, these hoops people create for other writers to jump through make participation more difficult. It is the down side of shared sandbox storytelling. There are a whole set of problems which come with it, problems that have led to lots of writers dropping out, sites losing momentum and becoming stagnant wastelands in need of reboots to renew interest time and time again, here (what is this the third start here?), UDC (2 reboots and I see different people clamoring for another there even though Bob is against the idea), and other places. So reboots happen again and again, yet nothing is ever done to address the problems that are leading to the need for these reboots and the writer attrition that fuels them. People keep hoping that they will get different results this time even though nothing is being done differently.
Shared universes are fragile, because they often have no foundation upon which they are built. Board wide claims are a start, but they are not even a cornerstone for that foundation. Everyone has different ideas for what the MU should or could look like. That is a blessing and a curse, because not all those ideas mesh and can co-exist.
If you want to cornerstone for this MArvel site to be the Marvel cinematic universe, that's fine, then say outright this is a MArvel Cinematic Universe fan fic site-people then know what they are getting into. But saying it is a place where writers develop "a whole new world with your favorite characters" (quoting the news ticker there) implies there is a blank slate to start from, not a slate based on one particular vision of the MU. The worldbuilding thread doesn't help because the ideas being presented here are not really part of the universe yet. They cannot be part of the foundation if they are not permanent, and since we have a six issue continuity rule, nothing except what has been determined board wide claims (at this point Fury and SHIELD) is permanent. And yet when I asked about those things that are permanent, that could help anchor the universe for everyone, I am told well these don't need to be developed all that much but look like the cinematic U and will be developed and revealed as the story goes along.
So the one thing that is permanent and can give the shred sandbox isn't being defined, and the things that could be ephemeral and shouldn't give the universe direction until they become established as continuity are being developed. To me it's just ass-backwards way to go about it and will just lead to the same mess we always get, because it has every time so far and we are just doing the same old same old and hoping for the best and this time it will turn out different. It won't. Not trying to be pessimistic, but track records are track records, and if you don't make any changes, there is no reason to expect it should go any differently. Lots of people have shown time and time again they are good at talking the talk, laying out plans and posting world building ideas, but when its time to do the work, to walk the walk and get the issues that accomplish those ideas written, edited, revised, and posted, they fall short and leave a giant-sized vacuum in the middle of the shared sandbox that sucks everything down into it.
The time to address the kinds of issues that lead to that are before issues start appearing, and actually should have been addressed before the draft was done. Reacting to each issue as it arises as writers start to drop is too late to prevent it, and its band aids not a cure. Preventative measures were needed to correct the issues, it hasn't happened, I don't see it happening, so maybe the one who is insane was me, coming back again to try this ride again and expecting the outcome to be different.
-M
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2014 13:52:19 GMT -5
With that said, I think I am going to go ahead and drop Secret Defenders. I will let y'all develop the universe as you see fit, and check back later to see if there is room for any story I have to tell. June is a busy month and I need to focus my time and energy on actually writing and creating stuff, and getting stuff ready for our Studio appearances, so any prose hobby work will have to wait until later in the month anyways. Good luck, I hope things do turn out differently for y'all this time.
-M
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Post by Drake on Jun 2, 2014 14:33:00 GMT -5
I understand what you're saying completely, mrp. I thought I'd made it clear earlier that there should be no overt connections between titles until they're in continuity. That means no references, no team ups, nothing.
You're also right in that SHIELD and Fury need to be defined more. If I wasn't recovering from a very serious back surgery then I would have already talked this over with the other admins in detail. Right now I think we should just do that here so you guys can throw in your opinions too. So let's discuss.
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Post by adrini on Jun 2, 2014 15:17:10 GMT -5
I'm keeping it vague. Kind when he needs to be, gruff when in default. Distant most if the time. Steps in when time is worst. I'm open.
As per uniform I was thinking non-descript military back. Simple, understated. Good for not getting too much attention. Thought it made sense.
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Post by Drake on Jun 2, 2014 15:26:17 GMT -5
Sounds good with me
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jun 2, 2014 17:09:28 GMT -5
mrp: I disagree with pretty much everything you said, but given you've already said you're dropping your title, I'd rather not get into an argument over it, so I'll wish you luck in your various projects and hope that maybe in the future you'll get the opportunity to write something for the site that sounds as exciting as your Defenders title did. Regarding the no crossovers rule, I can understand the reasoning behind it, but it would make things difficult for Adrini and myself since we were both planning on integrating our titles from early on. We could make it work, but it would be difficult. My suggestions for the SHIELD uniforms: Of course different branches could have different uniforms depending on rank, function, environment, or a number of other factors.
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Post by Drake on Jun 2, 2014 21:27:09 GMT -5
Actually you two can be an exception because I'm sure if one of you goes, both will. So we won't be left with something in continuity and something not. Go ahead but do try to keep it to a minimum just because I don't want it to be too unfair to the others.
Standard SHIELD uniforms are fine.
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Post by Stardrifter on Jun 3, 2014 11:45:10 GMT -5
So now that I'm working on Iron Man, I think I want to make Rhodey a SHIELD agent. It'll help tie things together. I don't need to contribute to the makings of SHIELD, I'll just work with whatever you guys decide, though I would be interested in rank structure.
I figure Rhodey would be the SHIELD liaison to Stark Industries. He wouldn't wear a uniform in day to day but a suit. But I don't know how that would work rank wise. Would he be a Sergaent Major Corporal Omega or a Lt. Commander Admiral Agent Alpha or a yadda yadda.
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Post by adrini on Jun 3, 2014 12:00:38 GMT -5
Just pulling from growing up (military brat) but various factions use colors, and sub insignia. I'm best familer with Air Force command structure, but again I'm open. I can put up a basic proposal and we can go from there. At least a starting point.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jun 3, 2014 12:05:07 GMT -5
Just pulling from growing up (military brat) but various factions use colors, and sub insignia. I'm best familer with Air Force command structure, but again I'm open. I can put up a basic proposal and we can go from there. At least a starting point. I'll let the people who know military rank figure that out, but as a side note the same game those designs come from have uniforms in different colors, styles, and ranks as well. The highest of which is a Nick Fury trenchcoat but I don't think that's appropriate for a general uniform.
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Post by DiscipleofBob on Jun 3, 2014 12:07:12 GMT -5
So now that I'm working on Iron Man, I think I want to make Rhodey a SHIELD agent. It'll help tie things together. I don't need to contribute to the makings of SHIELD, I'll just work with whatever you guys decide, though I would be interested in rank structure. I figure Rhodey would be the SHIELD liaison to Stark Industries. He wouldn't wear a uniform in day to day but a suit. But I don't know how that would work rank wise. Would he be a Sergaent Major Corporal Omega or a Lt. Commander Admiral Agent Alpha or a yadda yadda. Sorry about the double post, but wanted to say I'm fine with Rhodey being part of SHIELD, even though I'm not sure about official rank.
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Post by Drake on Jun 3, 2014 12:08:14 GMT -5
Adrini, go ahead and pitch the ranks here.
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Post by adrini on Jun 3, 2014 19:01:34 GMT -5
Quick question. Nick Fury, head of SHIELD, still a Col or can he be a general? The second would make more sense.
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